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[Music]

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welcome to the hidden truth show we are

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embarking on a deep dive into a 12-step

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program it's called AAA kills you're

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gonna see an excerpt from our interview

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with Mike Pond Mike Pond was a

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psychotherapist who had an alcohol

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problem

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he lost his practice he lost his home he

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lost his family and he wound up homeless

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he turned to his 12-step program and it

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didn't work

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ultimately he found Redemption and he

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found a way out of his alcoholism and

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now rents his own treatment program and

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says that he thinks that the 12-step

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programs are letting people down so

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you're gonna see an excerpt of my

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interview with Mike pond he's the author

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of wasted an alcoholic therapists fight

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for recovery in a flawed treatment

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system also with them is his girlfriend

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who produced his documentary her name is

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Maureen Palmer so are you on any

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medication for depression or that type

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of thing no in the jungle of Mexico

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about two years ago I have seen a

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profound personality changed since then

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well I am I'm familiar with with the

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medication ayahuasca you know famously

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provided mostly in Peru right and and

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people go there to take it not really

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it's a hallucinogen I'd but it's it's

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it's not really something that you do

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socially people really do it with a

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particular intent in mind to try to

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address something deep-seated in them

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including addiction well I was you know

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through the years assisted l-like

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assisted psychotherapy so I just got

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really curious and doctor gap are mad a

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we met him because he got booked in the

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Toronto Globe and Mail and I knew that

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he was using ayahuasca right and with

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his with his clients patients and

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to Mexico and that's when he invited me

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down to Mexico and I did the ayahuasca

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and came back his according to more than

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a different person this edge is greatly

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just be at peace and enjoy the life that

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he has now as opposed to being burdened

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by regrets from the period of the

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alcohol deep alcoholism it's made him a

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happier human well we don't need to do a

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whole show on it but just just to do a

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couple more minutes on it what were you

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focusing on when you do the ayahuasca

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and that what you said earlier is

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crucial right you need to have intention

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so when you start these these treatments

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or journeys as the shamans call them you

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need to come into it with with intention

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so that's the set right what is my

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mindset where am I at emotionally with

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this thing and what do I want to achieve

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and I went in with an intention very

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simple and just like helped me deal with

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my shame right because even after all

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these years and then of course after the

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you know the relapse that I had when we

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began filming I had you know all of that

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debilitating shame came right back in

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and I went oh man and so ice went in

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with that intention and then you so you

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look at the substance right the medicine

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or whatever you work on a plan medicine

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then you look at the set which is my

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mind set my intention in this setting

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and the setting needs to be a

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therapeutic setting right so this isn't

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about recreational I'm gonna get high

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and have fun and trip out right it

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really is about you know and and

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positive change

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yeah it's not a fun drug right right

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popped it ruptured a hernia but you

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could theoretically go back and do it

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again and perhaps address childhood

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trauma with it right yeah I I've gone

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back and done other ayahuasca ceremonies

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and as well psilocybin assisted so a lot

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of the psychedelic assisted work I'm

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quite involved in now

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because I'm just seeing these remarkable

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outcomes right probably reaching you're

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probably reaching things in the brain

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that you know it's just you can't reach

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on a conscious level it reminds me of

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this EMDR you guys familiar with this oh

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great well let's talk about EMDR because

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we've talked about that on the show

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before in our transgender deep dive and

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how therapists are using it in to

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address childhood trauma

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so are you Barbie oh good good so so are

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you using it as a treatment for

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addiction

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yeah India for years I mean even before

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all of this happened to me I've been a

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certified EMDR therapist for 25 years so

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it's been a big part of my practice

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desire 25 years it's been reference it's

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been around that long oh yeah yeah

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Francine Shapiro was the psychologist

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that developed it it's going to be 30

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years ago at least now so it's been

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around a long time and was it mostly for

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PTSD they initially used it for the war

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vets right to get no more vets to treat

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them and now it's kind of become much

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more broad and generous in terms of I

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use it for everything so in your in your

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practice what do you give as a ballpark

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percentage success rate with pts I mean

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sorry with the MDR this isn't science

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that I would go like seventy percent

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it's all pretty high right because

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people that try to deal with an

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addiction right it's the 12-step it's

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these other kind of standard cognitive

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behavioral approaches and so they've

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never really experienced what I call a

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deeper therapeutic technique and so they

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come into this thing okay Oh typically

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what I do is say what I'd like you to do

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suggest you do is construct what I call

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a trauma

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timeline and so we walk through your

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entire life from your earliest memory to

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today and just start to list write down

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everything making experience that you

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know had a negative impact on who really

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believed current losses abuses and

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neglect being bullied at school anything

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right and so the person goes through

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that process

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writing it I call peeling away the

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layers of the onion they think about it

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then they actually go oh my god yeah

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that was dramatic and then they send a

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paper that's another layer and then we

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bring into my office and we go through

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it right and that's another layer of

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processing and then I take each incident

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right and then I do MDR treatment with

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it

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nem DRS eye movement and the key piece

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is desensitization and reprocessing

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so the desensitization is bringing down

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disturbance right taking away all that

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disturbance from it and the reprocessing

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is changing one experience of it

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changing how I think feel and behave

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about it right Nestea and people

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experience tremendous relief and when

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they start to resolve a lot of this

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stuff or bring resolution to a lot of

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the trauma the mood starts to diminish

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the desire and need for substances and

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for the people who didn't listen to my

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prior show this is instigating some type

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of rapid eye movement that supposedly

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resets left-brain right-brain

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yes is that the brain is the brains

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processing with both hemispheres so you

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seem to be a great candidate for EMDR

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did you ever consider getting EMDR

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treatments back when you are having your

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issues I did I don't need those guys but

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it isn't that isn't that amazing you

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know because you're sitting here today

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and you're talking about significant

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childhood traumas and you're treating

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people with childhood traumas Michael

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did subsequently end up with the trauma

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Council including yeah yeah and no I did

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the MDR when I did the training I was a

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certified level 2 which means you know

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yeah I can teach it or

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instructed but we had to go through a

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lot of it ourselves right that's just

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part of the training and so I had that

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EMDR but not in the context of me

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dealing with my trauma and how it was

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connected to my my alcohol use when you

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were at the height of your alcohol abuse

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were you able to be self analytical and

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determine you know why am i this way

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were you thinking about that constantly

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in session and I often say I used to

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feel sorry for the last two or three

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clients of the day because by about 3:00

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4:00 o'clock I'm like thinking about

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drinking and wanting my drink and that's

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where my mind would go and so it kind of

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pulled me out of you know that

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engagement rate that I have with my

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clients my patients I'll have to send

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you copy the book because even while we

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wrote the book we might document it

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during the worst of his demise his own

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mental health status exams you end up

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doing like what's the overall assessment

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of function like 30 out of a hundred

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yeah and it's Mental Status exam and

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it's just a kind of a classic kind of

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way of getting mental status on somebody

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and at the end you know there's what's

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called the global assessment of

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functioning be a score zero to 100 and I

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would be measuring why are my

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functioning lost all the time and kind

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of gauging my own mental state and even

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when I was you know floridly psychotic

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paranoid and hearing voices and I was

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still able to somehow her take you face

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right what was going on here with you

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know sometimes I say can be a curse

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because I knew I was you know going

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crazy and and I'm so crazy and couldn't

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do anything about it and wasn't getting

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the help that I required in fact when I

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was in that state I was kind of

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ridiculed right in one of the recovery

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homes I was you know and I saw that a

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lot that people are suffering that was

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perceived as kind of weak right and

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vulnerable and there's this whole other

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dynamic that happens in a lot of

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treatment programs and recovery houses

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around that and you know

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if you read the block and I really gonna

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send you one of the young men that was

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being ridiculed and bullied and one of

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the recovery houses ended up hanging

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himself on child swing that was in the

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backyard of this house and we all went

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out and tried to revive him and and

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that's when I was just in selectively a

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switch in my brain I was like I gotta do

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something about this this is absolutely

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horrible that this is happening right

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well even Mike was in a government-run

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treatment program for a while and he

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went out on past and drank after I guess

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four weeks for three weeks and the group

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conscience met like the whole group

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thing he was part of and they decided to

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kick him out you know life-threatening

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condition would you be kicked out of

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treatment the other patients but there

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was fruitless

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snowstorms that year and you should be

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dead as a response Rosa no Beach and

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that's because we got kicked out of auto

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scott treatment should mean when you

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have the disorder is getting worse

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more treatment not kicked out of

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treatment and this I think in a lot of

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treatments centers probably eighty to

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ninety percent it still functions very

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much on that group mentality is that

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abstinence model right that's that's the

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one of the big problems is attacking

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this thing with you need to be absent

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and you need to be absent today and you

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need to stay obstinate for the rest of

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your life in fact we're gonna let your

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nerves success is going to be measured

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by your term of sobriety and to me

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that's insane and if you go off at once

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and in it every sets so all this all the

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pride that you've built in yourself that

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you've been able to stay clean for X

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amount of time and then you slip up one

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time and guess what throw all that out

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the window because you can no longer say

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I've been sober for X amount of time

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people don't come back right because

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it's humiliating you come back into

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those rooms with your tail between your

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legs and they say welcome back

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but you know in implicitly there's this

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same dynamic it's happening it's just

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part of it because again your status is

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measured by your term of sobriety but to

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be fair not always there is a

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significant number of names that

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attendant somewhere completely very

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loving and very compassionate

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yeah but then there were many you could

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even hear the guys smoking outside after

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the meeting saying things I'll never

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learn that's sort of all knowing and I

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actually even heard that kind of talk

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from one of British Columbia's addiction

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medical doctors that's there was a level

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of arrogance in in me I know this way is

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the way to go and I know it's so

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fervently I'm going to assist all of my

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patients learn it that way to even the

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medical so-called medical addictions

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expert that might saw might never heard

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of the word naltrexone I'm in the

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business and I'd never heard of the use

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of no affection for an alcohol use

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disorder and using gabapentin right as

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as a way of reducing cravings and and

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helping with that restlessness and the

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agitation and anxiety and helping you

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sleep man when you're trying to quit

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booze and you go out booze

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sleep just goes out the window because

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that's been your sedative for four years

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right and you take that away and most of

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us it's one of the biggest problems yes

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and sleep is number one if you're not

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getting sleep the whole rest of the

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system is gonna crumble describe that

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mentality that that causes you to be

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down to pawning a laptop as you point

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out in the documentary for 20 bucks on

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the street just to go be able to get a

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couple beers well in the book we tried a

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few times right how it's it's so

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pervasive it's so all-consuming that all

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other rational thought disappears not

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career not your kids not your wife at

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the time that everything is focused on

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the brain the brain actually is there's

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certain people that in this field that

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they say the brain actually believes

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that it's starving to death if it

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doesn't get that substance it's going to

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die so the brain is driving that right

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and yes there's a choice element to this

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I'm a guy and I gesture pick up that

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ball and put it to my mouth and drink it

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but when I saw my brain scans at the

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00:16:01,860 --> 00:16:00,160
Medical University of South Carolina and

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I hadn't had a drink for over five years

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and I had no conscious awareness right

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because I had to respond to these images

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they were flashing these random images

355
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of liquor right different forms of

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alcohol and beer and wine and hard

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liquor and I had this device in my hand

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that I did measure kind of my craving

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and I kept on that now nothing nothing

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nothing

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came out of there going oh I was easy

362
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but you know the brain scan said my

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brain was very excited it was wanting

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00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:32,740
that alcohol I had no conscious

365
00:16:37,230 --> 00:16:35,050
awareness of it well well something I

366
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liken it to but I thank God I haven't

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00:16:41,460 --> 00:16:39,279
had an addiction but I'm curious if you

368
00:16:44,430 --> 00:16:41,470
kind of agree with this that I just know

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when I'm sick you know and you're in bed

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sick nothing matters but feeling better

371
00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:50,860
you know you could say you you know sex

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you know this that the other travel

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nothing matters you just want to feel

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better and I'm just thinking that is is

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that what how you can describe the

376
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mindset of an addict perfect perfect

377
00:17:04,740 --> 00:17:03,250
analogy right because yeah you are and

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00:17:07,500 --> 00:17:04,750
you are sick right you got the flu or

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00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:07,510
whatever you got but there's I mean the

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00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:09,850
straw is horrendous right it's

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horrendous and those first few days in

382
00:17:18,030 --> 00:17:14,740
particular those it's really tough and

383
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so how do you stop that how do you you

384
00:17:21,689 --> 00:17:19,660
know that's the medicine it's the poison

385
00:17:27,179 --> 00:17:21,699
in the medicine at the same time right

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00:17:29,070 --> 00:17:27,189
and I wanted my medicine if you enjoyed

387
00:17:31,470 --> 00:17:29,080
that interview go listen to the hidden

388
00:17:33,150 --> 00:17:31,480
truth show podcast the hidden truth show

389
00:17:34,830 --> 00:17:33,160
podcast where ever you listen to podcast

390
00:17:40,790 --> 00:17:34,840
to hear my entire interview with Mike